Silva Sun
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Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a Baseball bat.
Posts: 225
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Post by Silva Sun on Aug 28, 2003 16:33:45 GMT -5
HOLY CRAPOLA.. WTFF?? i sorta wanna flame at her or something.. sheeshh.. i hate it when people do that. i don't really agree with her that moshi moshi queen is a very good writer tho.. her writing is a bit i don't know.. what's the word? or was i reading a different fic? I know. Both LWL and MoshiMoshiQueen are good writers, and both are horribly popular, but they're nto fabulous, and there's at least half a dozen CCS authors that I can name that are better. I suppose that's all the exposure RmGrace to something that's written. Doubt she reads novels at all.
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~*~Silent*Angel~*~
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Post by ~*~Silent*Angel~*~ on Aug 28, 2003 18:59:43 GMT -5
THAT LADY IS DOING A REWRITE OF ONE OF MY FAVORITE MOVIES? HOW DARE SHE DESECRATE THE ESSENCE OF RAHUL, ANJALI, AND TINA'S CHARACTERS!!!!!! Yes, people. I am from India, watch Indian movies, and knew from the chapter titles that I have just read that this was a rewrite. Someone tell the author that Shahrukh Khan, Kajol, and Rani Mukharji (3 of my fav. Indian superstars who are the main characters in the original Kuch Kuch Hota Hai, the movie this BAKA is copying nearly word for f****ing word) CANNOT be portrayed by Sakura, Syaoran, and Tomoyo! IT JUST DOENS'T WORK! People, if you're gonna rewrite a movie/series with anime characters, add some thought to your story, and make it somewhat ORIGINAL! DON'T KEEP IT THE SAME NEARLY WORD FOR WORD! If you wanna read an excellent rewrite fic, go read 'Winter' by cherrymecha in the RK section. It's great, it's a Chinese(?) series rewrite with her own pizazz added to make it somewhat original while still trying to stick to the original story line of the series. One of the best stories I've read so far, I say. This story, people, is the PERFECT example of how a rewrite fic SHOULD be written! ;D Oh, yea! Silva, Fungiwoman, and Yomi-san? Wanna burn the author of this nightmare that is supposed to be a fic at the stake? ;D
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Yomi
Amateur Otaku
Posts: 129
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Post by Yomi on Aug 28, 2003 20:50:32 GMT -5
Yes, the mob is fickle.You seem to want to casually dismiss this important aspect of the argument. I'll give you one more example: a lot of people think that Gundam Wing is god's gift to man and Heero is so hot etc etc. UC fans are heavily outnumbered, but I think we can all agree that UC Gundam is infinitely better in all respects than GW (not counting quality of animation of course). Does the fact that there are ten million GW fans make GW a really good anime when there are other anime like UC Gundam around? The answer is obvious. But you're definition of a MS is beginning to confuse me. In some of the stories you reviewed it was someone perfect, flawless, loved by all, and now it's a person that is different and can acheive anything?Please don't place words in my mouth. I naturally presumed that you had read most of my site as you have claimed and that you would therefore know what I'm going on about. Or perhaps I can simply reduce the equation to "person who can achieve anything = perfect" - I think I even put self-insert/wishfulfilment in bold in my previous posts. How could you miss that? In my opinion, wishfulfilment - aka being able to achieve everything through mere 'work' - is just another facet of perfection that a character has. So you're telling me that Alanna isn't loved by all - but in the blurb, she becomes a legend! So being a girl who wants to break free of the shackles of housewife-dom is just being 'different'? As a feminist, I thought you'd be cheering her on - isn't she such a more striking and vibrant character with her rejection of old (baaad) sexist values? Then is she therefore not only loved by all the girls who happen to read about her and thus isn't she the perfect model of what a girl should/can be? From that blurb alone - I see the whole MS package happening. "She wanted to become a knight because she was different" is so contrived and unrealistic because of the environmental factors necessary to produce this sort of anti-tradition mentality and the question as to why there aren't a few other girls who also want to become knights. It's always just ONE because god forbid there's another girl to steal the spotlight from Alanna. but Tamora Pierce is a very good writer. Alanna has her flaws, ots of them acctually. Yeah - flaws that really affect whether she's going to be able to achieve her status of Legend? I can't help but note that you have been incredibly general and vague in your description of Alanna. I can't help but think that either there aren't as many as you profess there are to be, or that your zealous admiration of Pierce has left you utterly subjective and impervious to impartial discussion. Don't worry - I'm like that with YYH. If you want to see real flaws - go read Stephen Donaldson - either his chronicles of Thomas Covenant (fantasy) or the Gap series (science fiction). In the latter, the protagonist is a despicable, hateful man (we're talking indifferent murder and serial rapist here)- he knows it, we know it, all the characters acknowledge it, and yet he is somehow supposed to play 'hero'. I never finished the series because I despised him so much but nonetheless, I had to admire the levels of difficulty that the author had set himself up for. TRY it - see what it means for characters to have flaws, then you'll understand why I put back books like Pierce's having only read the blurb. As a sort of side quest, Would you consider Hermione an MS?Hermione is an unfortunate stereotype. First of all, she's not the main character (one tick), second, her sole purpose of being seems to be to provide Harry with brains because he seems to have a total lack of them. I certainly wasn't impressed and groaned when I discovered her existence in book 1. I don't think we know Hermione enough to say much. If you singled her out because of her intellect and ambition to beat the boys - it doesn't really strike as too much of a surprise given that the book is set in modern times, therefore implicity has modern values. Are you trying to suggest that Hermione could be a MS because she's smart?! Look at it this way - Harry's arch rival in school (whom you presume to be a highly important character) is about as deep as a piece of paper. Draco's purpose seems to be to annoy Harry and make Potions hell for him. Pitiful way of living isn't it? Yomi PS - The link was highly amusing...and tragic nonetheless. But I do understand her sentiments - I have reviewed a lot of fanfics on my page already and authors write back telling me to review their other ones and to read their updates to see what I think. That's all fine and dandy - if they only realize that it takes quite a bit of time, plus they look quite selfish asking me to do so much stuff (Hades aint a charity) without an inkling of gratification or courtesy - such as read my fic and leave an opinion. I don't say it to their face, but I can't deny a small feeling of resentment as people think that they can just make demands of me without doing anything in return. PPS - this is from a friend in the ML who commented on one of Pierce's characters some months ago - I think she's read all the books so she's qualified to comment: In relation to the recent topic about Mary Sues - isn't it annoying at times that even professional writers have these too-good-to-be-true characters in their books?there's Daine in Tamora Pierce's The Immortals. She's better in archery than the King's champion and she has good senses; she could even see pretty well in the dark. At first she can talk to animals, then she could meld into their minds, then morph them, then bring dead animal bones to freakin life, and, have I mentioned that she's the daughter of a god? Well, if Ms Pierce is capable of making one MS, I'm not surprised she can spin several more. Don't worry - finding enjoyment in such books isn't a sin or something to be shameful about that you have to heatedly defend her. I say all the time that I used to write MS fics - I'm just lucky that I didn't post them up on the internet Y
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Yomi
Amateur Otaku
Posts: 129
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Post by Yomi on Aug 28, 2003 20:57:25 GMT -5
Oh, yea! Silva, Fungiwoman, and Yomi-san? Wanna burn the author of this nightmare that is supposed to be a fic at the stake? Oh, you mean I was supposed to have read the fic as well and not just the shameless begging for reviews? I flicked through the chapters just then - noted that they're awfully short for that many reviews. Then I flicked over the reviews and found that the readers only give awfully short comments which run along the lines of: continue. The fact that the author has to beg means that fic is going down the drain. If she doesn't get her desired reviews, she won't continue to write, therefore the fic will just shrivel up and die (as she *threatened* it would). Let nature takes its course Yomi
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~*~Silent*Angel~*~
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"Husbands should be like Kleenex. Soft, strong, and disposable."--Miss Scarlett
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Post by ~*~Silent*Angel~*~ on Aug 28, 2003 21:41:29 GMT -5
Hey Yomi-san? Do you by any chance agree with what I said about 'Movie/Series Rewrite' fics? Or is it just me who thinks that?
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Yomi
Amateur Otaku
Posts: 129
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Post by Yomi on Aug 28, 2003 22:14:04 GMT -5
Hey Yomi-san? Do you by any chance agree with what I said about 'Movie/Series Rewrite' fics? Or is it just me who thinks that?
Hmm....masami's done one on titanic, but I took the review down for that one because I think I was influenced by my negative bias for the movie in the first place.
If you're going to make a parody (is that the right term) of course you're going to have to add in your own elements - if only because the anime characters aren't going to act like the ones in the movie. I think I tried to write a YYH rewrite of US Marshalls a few years back, but that flopped quite a bit and I never continued. On the other hand, I read a REALLY good YYH version of MIB and MacBeth - but it seems like common sense really. If you're going to add nothing, all you need is a list of the cast and who's going to replace who. There wouldn't be a need to rewrite the whole movie/series which everyone presumably knows - you're just telling th reader: replace so-and-so in the movie with this CCS character, then let your imagination do the rest.
Yomi
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Post by M-Chan on Aug 28, 2003 23:44:09 GMT -5
Oh, yea! Silva, Fungiwoman, and Yomi-san? Wanna burn the author of this nightmare that is supposed to be a fic at the stake?
I don't think we need to bother with her... since its going to go down the drain anyway!
But if you are doing a rewrite on a movie, if your going to jus replace the names and write the movie like that as Yomi said, its just a waste of your time. You have to add your own touch to it, and keep the characters in character you know? The movie is just to get you started, its a rewrite, then you can change whatever you want.. right?
and please, please, please avoid double posting. i'm a bit lazy right now to edit everything XD
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Silva Sun
Anime Fanatic
Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a Baseball bat.
Posts: 225
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Post by Silva Sun on Aug 29, 2003 2:17:59 GMT -5
Yomi: Yes, Daine I am fully prepared to admit is a MS. She's beautiful, talented, fairly smart, special (SHe's the daughter of a freaking god) and she acheives everything. She herself has an animal sidekick, but Skysong is just damn cool.
I like pracitically anything that isn't mainstream. Long term exposure to the bitchy preppies at my school has made me so. I've never seen any GW, lacking cable as I do, so I can't really add my own opinion on that, but I understand what you're getting at. Actully, I can add another example. Lemons. Most lemons get more reviews/exposure to the ff.netions then regular fics simply because so many hentai's want to read them. I've seen absolute crap pieces of lemon writting get ten times the amount of one of my favourite FF.net author, Stardragon, does for all her fics together.
So the mobs aren't always right. But that is subjective. The masses think they're right. Another example if I may? Today, when talking to a 'friend' I was told that there was nothing wrong with today's society. When she was what was wrong with society (Language, dress code, mucus ['music'], etc.) she denied denied denied until ending the argument with 'you're weird'.
It's people's opinions. What was the point I was trying to get across again? Euh...
Next point. MS. Well, okay. So I forgot. But wish fufillment can be applied to nearly every character in the world, from books to movies. Fantasy is the disire to escape to a world where you aren't prejudiced against, teenage novels more a chance to get the feeling that they're young again. I think I have the point I'm trying to get to across. So, if it's simply wish fufillment, and I know you're going to say it isn't, then it applies to a whole heap of characters.
Shall read the book once I have time. Not now.
No, I wasn't trying to say Hermione's an MS because she's smart. I've seen her portrayed as an MS-y character in fics. It was acctually triggered by watching Harry Potter in Philosophy, hearing one girl say Hermione was perfect, and another say she was hopelessly snobby. I was merely interested in your opinion.
Well, Tamora Pierce is still an excellent writer. She may create Ms's, but there are truckloads of authors who are much worse. And I reckon, the books are so enjoyable that you don't care if the characters not far from perfect, then it's fine by me.
I read a Tamora Pierce/Monty Python fanfiction that was horrid. All the author did was watch "Monty Python and the Holy Grail", copy the script, and in the place of "Arthur:" she/he put "Jon:". Nothing new at all. Script fic, with the script of Monty python.
I didn't read the fic either. The note was enough, really.
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Fibby
Anime Fanatic
"In this world, we stand on the roof of hell, gazing at flowers."
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Post by Fibby on Aug 29, 2003 3:33:29 GMT -5
i didn't read it either. not worth my time.
but then, i kinda feel sorry for her... as i said before, it was projected to us (in the recent state of ffnet) that reviews do count, esp in grabbing the interest of the readers browsing through the thousands of fanfiction in ffnet's massive archive. (i'm talking about the CCS category. i'm not sure if this is true in other categories though.)
actually, some authors not only rewrite movies so they could change the characters and use the storyline (like the link Silva gave us, or even the Moulin Rouge complete takeover made by one author in the CCS category.) They even use novels (thinking that no one would actually notice.) I am quite certain that LWL's "Cherry My Love" is taken from the novel "Whitney My Love" by Judith McNaught. or at least she used the novel's plot line and made it her own by adding some of her own stuff. I'm not sure if she placed a disclaimer yet but anyways... I know another fic that was "based" on Kare Kano. And I didn't really like it. I mean, if following the storyline would mean changing the inserted character's personality to parallel the original one's, then why do it at all? the interesting thing about doing "takeovers" is to see how your favorite characters would react to the same situation given in the movie/novel/whatever you wanted to base your fic on.
um, am i making sense? ^^;
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Yomi
Amateur Otaku
Posts: 129
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Post by Yomi on Aug 29, 2003 4:03:13 GMT -5
I like pracitically anything that isn't mainstream.
So girl who is different isn't mainstream? You know that original fiction I was talking about - and I'm entirely truthful when I say this - but it was originally (like...6 years ago) about a girl who sounds quite a lot like Alanna (hence my negative reaction probably). The similarity of the ideas almost seems uncanny - two girls from this world were transported to some magical land (one of them being 'me' self insert of course), and 'I', like Alanna, wasn't like all other girls and actually had an iota of intelligence as compared to them all. Self-insert/wishfulfilment? You bet - but hey, I wrote that when I was young, and it was very mainstream.
Most lemons get more reviews/exposure to the ff.netions then regular fics simply because so many hentai's want to read them. I've seen absolute crap pieces of lemon writting get ten times the amount of one of my favourite FF.net author, Stardragon, does for all her fics together.
You should also see that it is lemon fics that get flamed by groups of people on the net - God Awful team, Slap to the Head Reviewers kinda target lemon fics quite a bit.
So the mobs aren't always right. But that is subjective. The masses think they're right. Another example if I may? Today, when talking to a 'friend' I was told that there was nothing wrong with today's society. When she was what was wrong with society (Language, dress code, mucus ['music'], etc.) she denied denied denied until ending the argument with 'you're weird'.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how your example is related to your statement. Actually, I see you acting a bit like your friend right now - I keep pressing you for an objective, impartial critique of Alanna, and all I get are vague and general descriptions that don't really tell me anything. Are you saying that you're part of the mob? The clearest example yet is: winners write history - revisionists come in much later - I think the revisionist movement in fantasy is starting to come about. More and more people are bored, not to mention exasperated, by cliches and stereotypes. 'Girl who wants to act like a man' is a stereotype.
It's people's opinions. What was the point I was trying to get across again? Euh...
Opinions are one thing - I have high opinions of that trash science fiction series. But I can also distance myself from it, see the bad points and come to the objective conclusion that it's not such a great book. I still have high opinions about it, but no, it is not that good. It's pointless to argue with someone who cannot separate their emtions with their assessment. That's why you aren't really getting any points across I'm afraid.
But wish fufillment can be applied to nearly every character in the world, from books to movies. Fantasy is the disire to escape to a world where you aren't prejudiced against, teenage novels more a chance to get the feeling that they're young again. I think I have the point I'm trying to get to across. So, if it's simply wish fufillment, and I know you're going to say it isn't, then it applies to a whole heap of characters.
No - you're getting this wrong. Self-insert is character (who and what that person is). Wishfulfilment is what happens to a character. Escapist fiction with incredibly happy endings for everyone and all is really a highly unsatisfying story, not to mention childish. Fantasy is NOT the desire to escape into a world with no prejudice. Fantasy is creating a world which isn't bound by all the laws of reality - such as the introduction of magic and fantastic creatures. Fantasy therefore does NOT mean that people can stop acting like REAL people, that society is going to stop behaving like REAL socities. And strangely, it doesn't apply to a whole heap of stories - just the really BAD ones.
Well, Tamora Pierce is still an excellent writer. She may create Ms's, but there are truckloads of authors who are much worse. And I reckon, the books are so enjoyable that you don't care if the characters not far from perfect, then it's fine by me.
That's the same argument perpetuated by the catholic church in their bid to cover up sexual abuse. They always cry: but look at the protestants! They're even worse. If you write an MS, you write an MS - there's no need to pick on other crappy authors. And I'm GLAD that you find her books enjoyable and that her characters (which you finally admit) are not that far from perfection after all. Just don't invalidate my comments if only because it goes against your fandom. That's the point I made like....3 posts ago. I'm also glad that you finally understand this concept as well.
All right, back to fanfiction now.
Yomi
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Silva Sun
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Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a Baseball bat.
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Post by Silva Sun on Aug 29, 2003 6:14:20 GMT -5
Yomi: You like to get your point across.
Okay. I'm not really willing to admit that Tamora Pierce has her flaws because I've idelized her since I was about ten. Happy? YOu may think she has flaws, but I don't care. That's why I'm not willing to engage in a serious debate. I don't want to. I've idealized her, I don't want to have her mocked. You're points are probably perfectly valid, but I'm really not in the mood to listen to them properly.
No, I'm not part of the mob at my school. Not at all.
You're much older then me. You have clearer views and a much more intelligent, presise manner of which to present them. I can't lock into serious debate because I honestly don't want to. Call it what you will.
I'll try to reply with more... substance, I suppose, when I'm less stressed. Which will Christmas time, but oh well.
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Yomi
Amateur Otaku
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Post by Yomi on Aug 29, 2003 6:43:06 GMT -5
Could have avoided this whole argument if you had read my second post on Pierce properly. Don't worry - I'm still defensive with a lot of anime and don't like to have people criticize them as inane, shonen comics that have no real plot or characterization. We tend to be like that. You've idealized her since you were ten?! So are her books specifically aimed at young teens then? I probably missed out by a couple of years then. Fantasy wasn't big back in my day...well, people could only talk about David Eddings and Raymond E Feist and Ursula Le Guinn and if they're slightly younger...Susan Cooper. Then there's Tolkien - but that's about it. Now, there's Artemis Fowl, Harry Potter, Pierce and god knows whatever spinoffs....lucky generation. We were looked down upon for reading fantasy back in my day coz it was the 'cool' thing to read about f*cked up teenagers on drugs with abusive parents, yadda yadda yadda. At uni, it's 'cool' to read about f*cked up young women who screw their best friends, have unprotected sex and have unwanted pregnancies, yadda yadda yadda. YOu may think she has flaws, but I don't care. That's why I'm not willing to engage in a serious debate. I don't want to. I've idealized her, I don't want to have her mocked. You're points are probably perfectly valid, but I'm really not in the mood to listen to them properly. Really....because we've just gone on for nearly a page and a half on this topic alone...and you're saying all along that you didn't care and weren't listening properly? Thanks for wasting my time? But I was mislead into thinking that you did care because I was kinda getting different vibes from your actions. You previous post was almightly long and a hearty defence of her work; you tried to argue that Alanna isn't a MS, which suggests that you care a LOT; you were ready to kill me for it, but now you're saying totally different things. But that's probably why it took one and a half pages to reach this stage - I have points that are 'probably' valid (I don't know - I haven't read the books. I was hoping that you could tell me since you have read them and all and your idealization is so strong and all, therefore you should have at least a dozen examples from the text at your fingertips to dispel any accusations that I've made for the book. Fanatics tend to be VERY persuasive in their arguments) leaving for yet again a highly unsatisfactory conclusion. I don't argue with you to get some perveted rush of happiness - and I certainly won't gloat because you finally understand why the argument was unworkable from the moment you relied on Pierce's general popularity as a sign of her story's worth. That's the same as relying on the number of reviews at ff.net - granted it works sometimes but it is not concrete and infallible indication of quality. You're much older then me. You have clearer views and a much more intelligent, presise manner of which to present them. I can't lock into serious debate because I honestly don't want to. Call it what you will.No - don't turn this into a "you're older and picking on kids' thing. You're old enough to appreciate feminism for goodness sakes and your english certainly isn't a cut below me. If someone mocked YYH, I'd be taking out all my cannons and aiming them in that 'someone's' direction. Surely my replies aren't that invulnerable.... And besides, I think my last post was starting to steer away from Pierce and just into the realm of fantasy generally - especially with the 'wishfulfilment' topic. Anyhow, I am deeply disappointed that you chose to end this with the 'I don't care' statement after leading me on for pages. Try to be upfront with this 'I don't care' attitude next time please and not say it just as I was about to establish my point? I have problems withdrawing from a debate that's just begun. Yomi
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Silva Sun
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Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a Baseball bat.
Posts: 225
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Post by Silva Sun on Aug 29, 2003 6:57:10 GMT -5
Fine. I don't care if you don't like her. I do care if people insult her. Sorry to disapoint you. Raging hormones. I know it's awful to blame the hidieous buggers, but it makes me feel slightly less guilty. Urg... That example reminds me of Neighbours *Shudder* Can we pick this up tomorrow? Very hormonal at the moment. In the mean time, want to see something with a self-instert being the savior. It's accknowledged that it's the maker, but it's still annoying me. I'm posting it now because it's the end of the month, and I figure that any download limits are renewed each month. It's killing me. www.metalmaverick.cjb.net/Then look at the first episode of "Elite gamer". What's you're opinion.
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Yumiko
Anime Fanatic
MoOOooo!!
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Post by Yumiko on Aug 29, 2003 7:03:43 GMT -5
whoa all these posts are LONG haha, Yomi-san ALL of your posts are BIG you are so talkative I bet you are classifed as 'SOUSA' in the hxh world XD. Well, from Hisoka's point of view anyway
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Post by Archangel_Dream on Aug 29, 2003 7:26:01 GMT -5
Aw, it's okay to have different opinions. I read script fics all the time, and I think they're cool--while other ppl (and Yomi-san) think they're a waste of space, becoz they don't bring effort. He, I just don't like too much description on things...i want dialogue! ;D
I hope I'm not too far off...^^;;
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