azile
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Post by azile on Oct 22, 2003 0:00:16 GMT -5
after all my internet duties and correspondence, i realized that time has just flown straight out my window. yomi and i both have exams coming up. whilst she seems to be steadily working on her fic still, i realize i'm much farther behind with all my readings than she is. so yeah, my goodbye is coming here as well. i can't afford to spend anymore time on the internet as i've just gone through a past exam paper and realize that i can't answer any of the damn questions. you bet i'm scared. till we meet again. azzy
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azile
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Post by azile on Oct 18, 2003 5:32:11 GMT -5
yumiko: what on earth? how the heck did you jump to the idea i was talking about you? i even took out a quote from fibber's message. surely you didn't think that was your quote now did you? calliston: if someone said in all seriousness that they wished me to die, i'd know where i'd be - far, far away from said person who said it. what could the moderators do? interpret what fibber said? i think yomi has no problem with interpretation. both sides say sorry? personally, i see nothing she has to apologize for, if not for the fact that she wasted a lot of braincells on one deceitfully nasty person who she should have realized never intended to debate the matter with any level of seriousness or depth. and judging from your recent comments in the religion thread which demonstrated a fine lack of interpretative skills and your weak ability to handle arguments in the self esteem thread, i question the ability of moderators such as yourself to achieve impartiality and come to a well explained conclusion which would satisfy both parties. wilfully ignoring someone's crucial point does not satisfy - i note your tendencies to use such tactic and further add that it's hardly the way to go to resolve an issue. in lying and those despicable words, not even a severe reprimand against fibber would lessen the revulsion that yomi feels for him/her. best to leave things to either parties or just lock the thread before a mud slinging match can escalate as fibber had made it. azzy
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azile
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Post by azile on Sept 12, 2003 3:53:09 GMT -5
*shrug* not that i know what's been said, but it's unlikely to be a misunderstanding. i senselessly attacked yumiko (i'm sorry!) after i saw the review for yomi's fic whilst she handled it calmly and found out that there's some idiot going around using other people's names to review. i know my friend is taking the hard line, but she thinks things through thoroughly and must have read through the misunderstanding a few times through just to make sure it was or wasn't one. Sure, maybe I was playing dumb, but I would never direct insults at her. oh, so you're this sick person then? look pal, i think we can agree on the fact that we dislike: liars, cowards and idiots. to play dumb is to act dishonestly; you know what someone is saying, yet you deliberately set to make out as if you don't understand their words so you can treat words/ideas on the literal level so as to destroy its meaning. that's lying, and people only play dumb when they're too afraid to say their true feelings yet nonetheless wish to express it in some other form. you're an idiot to not recognize that playing dumb is to be a liar and a coward. no wonder yomi doesn't even want to look at you anymore. and what were you pretending to be dumb about?! i can give you some advice on net debates: if you feel that you're defensive and personally irritated, take some time off before you reply. if you can't hack the heat levels anymore, just say 'no more, i've reached the limit', otherwise to use attrition tactics like playing dumb not only wastes other peoples time but also shows that you have nothing better to add to the argument anymore and you are needlessly flogging a dead horse. a shame it has to end this way for you, but everyone has their own principles i guess. i'm find with people like you, but my friend obviously subscribes to other principles. look at me! if i continue with this, i'll be the one flogging the dead horse (looks at dead horse and says: poor horse)! ps: did you realize that this is an interesting place to go when one is bored from studying? [EDIT]: is it ok if i snuck in around here now and then to make a post? i'm a hunter newbie and just started watching yyh!
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azile
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Post by azile on Sept 9, 2003 10:29:13 GMT -5
um...ehh..sorry to intrude pplez but i have a message to make. is this the right place to make it? oh well:
'yomi' said she was leaving this forum for good. i'm not too sure about the reasons but she said she didn't even want to visit this place again...something about how she's sickened and totally grossed out by some appallingly disgusting person saying some terrible things to her and stuff. i thought this place was civilized, heck, you have all kinds of ppl on the internet i guess. whoever you are who said those nasty things to her, i bet you're happy now she's leaving.
more time for studies i guess.
[Edit] sorry i broke my promise for coming back. i had a message to deliver!
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azile
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Post by azile on Oct 21, 2003 23:09:16 GMT -5
And azile? Yes, the message that girls need to look good is there. You've said it atleast seven different times. Stop acting like you've convinced me that you're morally right as well.
as i said, accord this fact its fair weight and significance and don't let you petty pride of having been defeated in an argument get in your way of understanding this point. if it'll make you feel better and less humiliated, i'll stop saying anymore if you'll appreciate the gravity of this message which you seem to dismiss as 'mere.'
on the other hand, i do believe i have convinced you that i'm morally right - making girls not love their bodies is wrong. you can't argue against that but you did, and you didn't even know who was doing it or why girls have poor self esteem in the first place. excuse me whilst I backtrack a bit...this is what you originally jumped into the argument with :
What on EARTH does it have to do with men?
wow. looks like you've come a long way from that misguided statement. except you don't want to admit that we had a hand in helping you understand it, tortuous as this path has been given your final and rather unfair outburst against me. i've already overlooked the fact that you never had answers to half the things i've said - i've answered all your hypotheticals and all you ever do is come up with lame excuses, going so far as to 'tell off' girls who are influenced by media and image and retracting it when u realized ur mistake.
you've finally understood our views yet you continue to demean their worth without substantive reasoning. is this because of your pride that won't let you say: i was wrong to say what i said in the first place? i never saw this as remotely competitive but ur consistent negative and dismissive attitude towards this rather serious subject left me to doubt whether you're trying to defend your own insecurities or something. perhaps you don't 'kick ass' the way your profess to do, but that's ok. we all have self doubts about our image, but it's nothing to get so defensive about just because we say we shouldn't be having these self doubts.
be a bit more mature and realize that there are older people out there with more experience of the world than you so inevitably their reasoning is more persuasive. you show graciousness if you accept and learn and ask a few more questions than to bite back with these callous and unjust remarks.
The Perfect Land would send me screaming for the hills with a gun to my head.
your bitter, bitter sarcasm is deluding what common sense you have left. you'd realize that in the Perfect Land, all women can be proud of their bodies without the need to alter it and will love it and thus there will be no eating disorders and whatnot. in this perfect land, men will judge women by their personality and not their looks. and this sort of land would send you 'screaming for the hills with a gun to your head'? are u sure you're thinking right? or are u more concerned with coming back at me with flashy one-liners or something, because this sentence alone basically destroyed any sympathy you pretend to show for the plight of women with low self-esteem. more and more, and with lines like these, i'm thinking that u only give mere lip service to the concept of pressure on girls to look good. that's not just your tragedy - it's a tragedy for all women that there are females like u who would think this way. i really hear your insecurities crying here and i'm starting to feel sorry for you.
And here's my feminist tag? What the hell is that supposed to mean? "Oh look, she finally realizes that the entire world is shallow and screwed. She gets to be recognized as feminist."
Yeah, yipee for me. Alot that means coming from somebody who claims that the society is fucked. What do you mean by feminist? Somebody who completely rejects being girly?
i don't understand your last paragraph but i suspect u don't understand much of what you're talking yourself. this is some bitter loser talking here, and i wonder why u resort to such harsh and derogatory words against me. when have i ever mocked you to deserve this? and u say we should come to you when we have problems on the forum when you deal with yours with crude and offensive rudeness.
feminism isn't a thing to be disgusted by - as is the idea that men try to propagate these days. by feminism, it doesn't mean you never get married or reject men or you have to reject being girly, as you've been ashamedly misled to believe. feminism means to realize the inequality of status and power that women are still subject to in this world, that we are still being pushed around by men and are subtly pressured into altering our bodies to suit their ideals and desires. if you're offended by that, then i don't see how you've really taken in anything that i've said....for like seven times already. do you really think i would have needed to say it in different forms seven times if you could understand it in one go?
Yes, surgery is just the next step. It's right after we wax, trim, clip and starve. I mean, is that the best we can come up with? If the media wants us to look fucking fantabulous, I wonder why they didn't invent a way better than cutting open our legs and vacuuming the fat. Actually, that sounds like a great idea. I'll do that after I swear my eternal allegiance to my idiot of a boyfriend and become a blonde to become a cheerleader.
wow, you're resorting to an unreasaonable literal interpretation of my words in a lame attempt to make me look stupid or something. and you still don't get the point - there ARE probably blondes who are cheerleaders who go to such lengths to look 'fucking fantabulous' because this 'fucked up' society has eroded their self esteem to the point where they feel it is necessary to do so. what now, are you going to scold those bimbos for being stupid and weak again? where's your sympathy and compassion for less fortunate women?
oh - and liposuction IS vacuming away the fat, although given the levels of obesity in western society, i guess it does achieve certain health benefits. but collagen injections and what not...it's no longer as simple as applying a layer of makeup that can be washed away with some make-up remover. whilst concessions are made for fashion and accessories and other things to change our outer physical appearances, going beneath the skin and undergoing surgery for looks cannot be seen as anything BUT morally disturbing.
Girls wear make up all the time, mascara lengthens your eyelashes, lipstick changes your lip color. Surgery is just the next step.
lipstick and mascara don't permantly alter or damage the body though, so how could you say that surgery, where they cut you open and inject things into your body (or take out things for that matter) be seen as ok? if women really want bigger breasts, i'd recommended the gel filled bra or the air pump one that julia roberts used in 'erin brokovich' over surgery; but if i had my way, i'd rather say: your body is healthy and that's all that matters.
azzy
[Edit] PS - I really don't mean to pursue this point to make you look bad or anything Calliston, but you still haven't answered my question (and I'm still highly curious) but: u made a comment that I sounded like I was talking out of a textbook. ever feel like telling me how that's a negative? coz i can't see to work it out and i'm sure u put that up as some sort of defense....
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azile
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Post by azile on Oct 20, 2003 4:10:03 GMT -5
i had a lot to say in response to your contradictory post, but on reflection, i will not. even though i could link back your ideas and thoughts back to image, i thought I should forego my pride in proving myself right for the second time for a number of reasons - one being that you are still unable to talk about this forthright and two, who am i to tell you that your confessions contain elements of denial. --> no, forget it, i'm not a professional counsellor and you think you know yourself, so irregardless of whether an outsider can sometimes interpret the situation with more clarity, it doesn' t matter.
on the other hand, about your so-called boyfriend - he's a piece of scum. ditch him and get yourself a dog. you're only 15 - think about your studies, go to the movies with your friends, go out to lunch with them. what makes you think that a boy's 'companionship' at 15 will be stronger or better than that of your girlfriends? i spot an appalling number of contradictions with your latest post and your previous one - i'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not making up the story, but the contradictions are glaring and unnerving. get the damn dog - a dog will love you unconditionally and won't say "i prefer my masters chubby, but oh well, guess you'll do".
everyday, you've got to get up in the morning and say: i don't have to change my looks for anyone and i will not go about changing my looks for anyone. as one female to another, that's all i can say to you without treading on other sensitive issues. focus on your studies, enrich your mind with knowledge to allow you to live independently in the world and forget about the ridiculous idea that you need a boyfriend at this stage. i've been through one of the bitchiest private schools in my state so i know how girls are unkind to each other, but...i thought you said you had a good group of friends...either way, ignore the ugly side of life if it depresses you and concentrating on studies does wonders for your mind and soul.
azzy
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azile
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Post by azile on Oct 19, 2003 2:41:15 GMT -5
If a boy told a girl that she looked bad, he would get his ass handed on a platter, either by her or her friends.
and even after that, the malicious message lingers in the mind and begins to foster doubts and insecurities. you don't need a boy to tell you you look ugly - you only need to make constant comparisons between yourself and the 'hot' women that the media promotes to derogate what pride and confidence you initially had.
But if a girl tells a girl she's ugly, the girl takes it to heart a bit more. When it comes to the self-esteem issue, I think girls pit themselves against others for the - surprise - ability to compete with men. Sometimes.
well, i'm glad you finally see our point. so you see - unlike your first post which sent silva sun ranting, to a large extent, image and self-esteem is heavily connected to men.
, if a person does end up competing for a man, I think she would have better qualities than a pair of silicone boobs.
that's the 'perfect world' i was speaking about...i don't know...4 posts ago, but i'm still glad you finally see the ideology. unfortunately, the world largely doesn't work like that and image plays a major role.
I'm sorry, but the media is LYING. LYING!!! There is no ideal body, because we are all too different.
and rather than tell girls to find something better to do in their time instead of whinge about their looks, we should actively try to deconstruct the media image. but you'll be going up against institutions like hollywood and the economics of marketing, which = impossible task.
a kind of world with these sorts of pressures is screwed enough for me thank you.
after all this time, you've finally caught up to what we were getting at. congratulations - here's your feminist tag - now spread the truth about the falsity of the media image of women.
azzy
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azile
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Post by azile on Oct 19, 2003 0:34:11 GMT -5
gah...i shouldn't have sounded so harsh myself. it's just that what you said is stuff which i've been saying to my older sister for years. she hasn't got eating disorder or anything but every day without fail she complains about how much she has eaten or that her pants are starting to be too tight or how she can't wear half of her clothes because she doesn't look good in them. the pressure to look good IS there - she's a smart and intelligent woman who is about to become a registered pharmacist at the end of the year but she has a healthy body yet wishes she were still thinner. she says of renee in bridget jones diary that she isn't big at all and is a beautiful person yet just somehow cannot apply it to herself.
media and image works in very subtle ways to attack the subconscious side of us. if you take out boys in the equation and say 'i'm too fat', either way, it is society pressuring you to look a certain way in order to qualify for 'beauty'.
the fact my parents expected me to be perfect, i became anorexic at the age of 9.
sorry to raise this once more, but kumiko, why do you attribute perfection with being skinny? this is the point that few of us have been trying to make.
azzy
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azile
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Post by azile on Oct 18, 2003 21:28:22 GMT -5
of course you know what you feel and think, but let me add something extra.
i was a child model for cloithing companies and a devoted dancer and gymnast. for various reasons tied more to do with the fact i liked the feeling and the fact my parents expected me to be perfect, i became anorexic at the age of 9. nine years old.
child modelling, dancing and gymnastics are all inextricably linked with weight and image. when i talked about anorexia i generalized to a certain extent in that it not only occurs to girls obsessed with image. ballet dancers and gymnasts in particular also suffer from weight disorders as their sports require it of them to be light and petite. in the case of ballet however, the stick figure with long arms and small torso is STILL considered the image of beauty and i wonder whether this has any application to gymnastics or not.
i convinced myself losing weight was the only way to stop the taunting. i was bulimic at age 12.
if it wouldn't hurt you too much to dwell on this point, but what was the reasoning behind your conviction to loose weight? you were bullied and taunted because of...? and so you thought the solution was to loose weight.
dont tell me boys want skinny girls. dont tell me we destroy ourselves to prove darwin a genius. boys hate me, they wont touch me. trust me. at the age of 15, i had never had a boyfriend, and no boy has ever even been interested in me.
and what would you do to get them interested in you? loose more weight? that was the entire crux of yomi's original comment. much of what we've said so far as been unfairly general and i recognize that there are cases like you but that doesn't mean that anything else we've said is untrue either.
I have someone right now, but we both have problems and our relationship destroys us both. we mutually use each other because thats all we know. but he wont touch me. he's my boyfriend only in name, and i know that as soon as he gets his Ex-girlfriend back, i'll be left behind.
hon, why do you feel that you need a boyfriend to validate your existence as a female? that guy sounds like a jerk and any relationship based on 'mutual usage' clearly doesn't look like it will get anywhere and you recognize this yourself.
you say that your problems have nothing to do with boys and society, yet your post has talked on bitterly about these two subjects. to take the path of rejecting males altogether is a bit extreme, i admit, but treat it as a mental exercise - what would you think your life'd be like if you didn't have to worry about being able to find a man interested in you? --> for a lot of us, it'd mean that we'd no longer have to worry about who our big nose is going to repulse or who's going to laugh at our huge thighs. what about you?
"you're worth nothing" but the fact that my parents do it all the time doesn't help.
i'm sorry, but as a parent, i'd never say that to my child. as a parent, love is supposed to be unconditional. i'm glad you've got a group of understanding friends.
"i thought you'd all know better than that" --> great lot of help and encouragement those words would be here calliston. thank you for your courage to share your problems with us - some of us here needed a wake up call.
azzy
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azile
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Post by azile on Oct 18, 2003 5:13:15 GMT -5
Ok, fine. So what you're saying is that we're all pressured into looking good at a very young age. I agree with that as much.
i'm glad you do. now try to give that thought a bit more significance and weight and concern than you're giving it right now. and it's not just young age - it's across the spectrum. take botox injections - you're injecting a chemical to paralyze muscles so that your skin does not show that much wrinkling. now, what kind of health benefit does this REALLY give?
then and again, you'd probably just shrug this off and not accord it its actual weight and significance. the fact that things like botox and breast implants exist, surgery which serves no beneficial purpose, AND the fact that many people resort to it, really does not fit into the picture of a 'not so screwed up world'.
I'm 15, I'm just getting started in high school, and no matter how green or naive I am, let me kick ass my own way.
now spare a thought for the unfortunate ones who do not possess your strength and courage and confidence and self esteem. a lot of girls feel that they can't 'kick ass their own way'. they feel that they have to comply with the media representations and product advertisements.
At the same time, I feel like you're talking from a text book.
this comment is lacking in depth and substance. it'd make you look better if you could actually point to specific 'textbookish' points or point out the actual negatives of textbookism. as you have not, i can only interpret that as a lame attack against the myriad of things i've had to say that you couldn't come up with a reasonable counter to other than to dismiss it. i don't expect you to be able to come up with the counterargument because one couldn't possibly exist. as said above, the FACT that many women (feel free to scour the internet for statistics) resort to surgery which derives no health benefit, which is only geared towards the enhancement of image (for men), the fact that girls and some boys DIE from anoerxia because of their image obsession is evidence enough that the world is messed up. if you choose to turn a blind eye to these glaring facts, that's your ignorance and your inability to face the rot and corruption behind the glamour of an image-obsessed society. it's not a happy scene, so i understand why you'd choose not to accept it despite all that silva and i have had to say.
But to those out there with low self-esteems, and beleive or are taught that you have to look pretty, I would have thought you all know better.
that's harsh and cruel - you're saying to people with low self esteem that they're stupid and weak. well, excuse me whilst every advertisement, every teen magazine, 90% of women on tv feature the 'model' woman and oh, there is no such thing as peer pressure either. if you're trying to console people and inspire confidence, i assure you that you're going about it in the entirely wrong way. just because you're fit, fine and healthy with an exuberant amount of confidence gives you no right to scold others like that. say that to a woman about to step into a surgery to get breast implants - u realize it's not so terribly persuasive now.
the problem with image and girls has been rife for years - i'm already 4 years out of highschool and they started to coach us on image and self-esteem when we were 12. my friends have known girls who had passed away because they refuse to eat. go on the internet and find some damn stories about the lengths anorexic girls in hospital will do not to eat food yet look like they've gained weight. they have intensive counselling, that's just how bloody screwed up the world has driven them.
can your self-righteous attitude and step into the real world where real suffering of low self esteem takes months and years to heal with some anti-depressants prescribed along the way. i invite you to rethink the proposition "the world is screwed up" when you finally understand the root and cause of low self-esteem and accord it its fair weight and significance.
azzy
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azile
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Post by azile on Sept 21, 2003 20:19:03 GMT -5
But I still say that society is NOT that messed up. that point is moot. Unless this women were insanely in love with him or had a real emphasis on being attractive and such, I honestly do not think that awomen would rush off to have her breasts slit open and have silicone cups inserted into them.No - the self esteem issues step in before this stage. first, why don't you consider that we actually have the concept of breast implants to begin with. breast implants aren't a health issue (unless a woman's had her breast chopped off after breast cancer...that's a different story) so why do we have this 'service' around? then you should consider that there are women who do go and have their breasts slit open to have silicone cups inserted into them and the real question you should be asking yourself is: why do these women feel the need to mutilate their bodies like this? at a plastic surgeons office, they have pictures of celebrities - be it facial features or chest (i want cameron diaz's nose and jlo's butt and so-and-so's lucious lips) so the connection has to be that we've been bombarded by unhealthy images of the male-perceived 'beauty' and thus there are women whose self esteem has been lowered to the extent that they feel a need to injure their bodies thus. what kind of society would pressure and hurt a woman so? is that messed up enough for you? the alarming rates of anorexia and belimia in girls/women should be indicative of the powerful influence of the media promotion of 'sex-appeal' --> and to sum up, who is the sex appeal for? why, the man of course. And a large amount women are not animals, and most men are not that shallow. as a woman, even i'd pause and let my eyes linger on another woman whose body and image is near the ones posted on billboards. lets be entirely honest with ourselves here, self esteem issues aside, but if friend A had supermodel looks whilst friend B is dumpy and ordinary, who do you think the boy will want to instinctively chat up to first ( his self esteem issues aside)? sure, he might be turned off by friend A's lack of personality but then and again, in this fast moving, fast changing world, just how many people will pause to give you a chance to show them how wonderful your inner being is? it's a materialistic world drunk on the glamour of image. that cycle is hard to break and the markets are loving it. still don't think the world is that messed up? azzy
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azile
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Post by azile on Sept 21, 2003 9:38:00 GMT -5
Here's an example for you. Two friends like the same guy. Both are on the same 'level', we'll say. These two girls both 'go after' him to see who's the most suited for him. in order to answer this, you'll have to specify how those two friends propose to 'go after him'. in the context of this thread, this usually means to acquire or come close to the media image of the 'desired' woman because surely men are turned on by those types of women - we're all being constantly subject to and told that it's sexy to have stick like thighs, 22 inch waist and generous breasts. second, you realize that the boy isn't a wooden statute - he will have a mind of his own. that's where the image thing comes in again: if the boy likes girls with big breasts, does this mean that friend B, whose breasts are smaller than friend A, will have to undergo plastic surgery and get breast implants so that she can still compete with her friend for the boy? if the boy likes girls who have the kate moss waif figure, does that mean friend A, who is a bit more plump than friend B, will therefore have to endure extensive dieting and crazy gym sessions for two months straight? if you understand the problem that we see in the above, what we're therefore trying to get at is that women shouldn't have to go through this unnecessary self mutilation just to please men. anything we do should be to please ourselves - and the question ultimately is whether it is actually worth damaging our bodies for a man. being the individualists that our feminist forerunners hoped we'd be, we don't think that it is worth it. if the friends were to fight for the boy on personality grounds alone, we'd all be fine, but we all know that the world doesn't work that way. image in society today has been hyped up to become excessively important so if a man can't appreciate a girl for who she is and wishes that she could loose some weight, have skinnier thighs or bigger breasts, then tell him to shove it.
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azile
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Post by azile on Sept 21, 2003 9:26:13 GMT -5
and you girls are what...13, 14 years old? praise be for the feminist revolution otherwise we'd all be content to be uneducated women doing needlework and cooking and childbearing. today, we can study, have a mind of our own, get a decent job, have a career, be economically independent and lead life as we wish. but alas, the wonderful dream of the feminist forerunners was destroyed or at least severely derailed. callistron, had you read the intial posts, most girls were complaining about low self-esteem in the area of body image (my nose is too big, my hips too wide, i'm ugly), hence this thread's ostensible fixation with looks. and what are looks for? why do you want to look better than your friends when you go out to a nightclub or pub? attention! whose attention? men. of course, there are apparently a lot of other psychological reasons for competition, but i subscribe to the darwinian theory of evolution - that women inherently want to mate and want to mate with the best/strongest male whose children will subsequently have a higher rate of survival, thus ensuing the survival of the species. so why can't women fight over men? never said they couldn't; but it just makes us look like stupid hormone driven creatures with no sense of decency or self control. further, the act of competition is degrading in that in order to compete, a woman has to model herself to what a man considers to be attractive: the supermodels with the unhealthy bodies, scantily clad women in advertising - we feel that we're being forced to do something that has been dictated to us, robbing us of our individuality. sure, men are targetted, but not to the excessive extent as women. why else are numbers of anorexia and belimia much higher for girls than are for boys? this pushing of the male-conceived image of desirability is damaging not only our love that we should have for our appearance, but is making some of us do unhealthy things. they've been doing this to women for centuries: the painful corset for the hourglass figure in europe, the bound feet in china, the mutilation of genitalia in african countries: question - why should women have to put themselves through that kind of torture in order to be qualified to compete or have a chance? looking and feeling good for yourself is one thing, but to do it for another one according to their rules is degrading on many respects. wouldn't it be good if there was no such thing as 'sex appeal' and attraction was based on personality not appearance. alas, that is mere wishful thinking, but it doesn't mean we can't continue to dream of such a day. yikes...law students do have a propensity to rant don't they. oh gees, i better get back to studies. azzy
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azile
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Post by azile on Sept 21, 2003 8:56:54 GMT -5
;D hey, i found where the root of the problems began. so this is what fibby said that grossed out my friend. praise be for my thick skin, but if someone made these sorts of nasty implications, i'd feel terribly uncomfortable too. to callistron: a person's tone can be perceived by the words and the context which it was said in. for example, take sarcasm - said in the right place and time, you don't need to tack on "i'm geing sarcastic" here sort of thing. you can hear it already. another example: take your last misguided message to my friend. do i realy need to be able to hear you to hear your outrage and indignity? by your subconcious choice of words, you've made your tone perfectly clear. as to your actual message to yomi, i'll convey it to her. but i think you're misreading it... from all angles, it looks like a statement of opinion to me, just as fibby gave her a state of opinion about my friend's lifestyle choices. *shrug* and besides, fibby has already admitted that her arguments weren't based on reasoning, so i can't see why "you're so far gone that reason doesn't mean anything to you anymore" is nothing but a restatement of fact? knowing my friend, she was probably returning fibby's tactics towards her to make her understand something fibby later admits as having falsely denied that she didn't understand (did that make sense?) ah well, i'm just a friend with a biased opinion - how can expressing pity for someone be considered an attack anyway? well, you're entitled to you own, misinformed as i believe it is, but yomi's not coming back anyway, so i'm just flogging the dead horse again azzy edit: curse the typos
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