Silva Sun
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Post by Silva Sun on Sept 20, 2003 17:49:46 GMT -5
Okay, now that was just annoying, really. "Why can't WOMEN fight over MEN?" You make us sound like vultures fighting for the best bit of meat. Fighting over a man because of their looks is degarding and makes you look weak and dependant. Look, if you want to degard yourself to the point of FIGHTING for a piece of meat, who am I to stop you? I can't destroy the masses, now, can I?
Why CAN'T women fight over men? If the guy's attractive you and you geniunely like him go for it.
I almost fully agree with Yomi on this (Can't really remember if I always did); that low self-esteem genuinely comes from not being able to attract the oposite sex. Look. Why do other women tell you your ugly? So they can feel good about themselves and to make you less likely to want to go flanting over the men they want. You won't feel worthy, so you won't bother. Believe me, that's what happens, to me at least.
"Low self-esteem comes from people point-blank telling you you're not worth while." Umm... no. Low self-esteem ussually stems from bullying, which is anything from punching someone to ignoring them. Low self-esteem usually comes more from the ignorance, because it makes you feel incredibly unworthy. If they were trying to put you down, hey, they see you as a threat. And some people just naturally have low self-esteem, that comes from the inside and not the outside.
"What on EARTH does it have to do with men?" Quite a lot, acctually. Not even you, or perhaps you can, deny that when you see one of the flawless blonde on the cover of some womens magazine, you think 'why couldn't I look like her? I'm so ugly. I'll never have men throwing themselves at me like her.' So they women stop eating to try and look like those women to attract men.
"EVERYTHING in your life is affected by your self esteem, from the way you act, to the way people treat you, to who are, really. "
That's a funny point. If you have higher self-esteem, wouldn't it be more likely that people see and treat you as being stuck up or trying to put others down? How thin is the line of what people see as self assured to bitchy, stuck up and full-of-yourself? Or perhaps it's just me that thinks that.
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Post by Calliston on Sept 20, 2003 23:48:59 GMT -5
Vultures fighting over meat? I think you're over-playing my point. I was saying that if you found a guy attractive, and so did others, why COULDN'T you compete? That sort of thing CAN be pulled off you do it in a mature fashion. Being a couple is not always a 'true love' thing. It may be shallow, at first, but think of it a little more.
And, just a side-note, but now you're arguing my point. Not being worth-while is the same thing as being unworthy. Besides, there's more than one way to show a person what you think of them.
And also, if you really think of me as a bitch who claims to have high self-esteem, why don't you just tell me? Dahling, I would never kick you off a board for having a negative opinion of me.
And what is it with you and the 'men' aspect? You act like we have to work hard to be worthy of them. And you also seem to be behind the times. That flawless blonde also has to be incredibly careful about what she eats and how she treats herself. Plus, in real life, celebrities totally intimidate their dates. And nobody's flawless, but cover-up and tweezers go a long, long way.
The bottom line? Quit it with the 'women have to work for men' thing. Women can compete for men, yes, but if it's to the point where it's self-disrespect, then I agree with you. It's not always one-faced though. Not all of us do it to feel good about ourselves.
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Silva Sun
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Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a Baseball bat.
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Post by Silva Sun on Sept 21, 2003 1:02:56 GMT -5
First off, I'd like to tell you that I DON'T think you're a bitch, nor was I implying anything of the sort. I was reffering to other people I know, who fully fit the description I gave. Not you, since I really don't know you. I can't have a negitive opinion about you, well I suppose I could, for expressing your ideas. At least your not doing it while blowing up middle-eastern countries... whoops, there I go again.
I'm sure the Vultures find the piece of meat enticing as well. I know it's probably just human nature, but fighting over men implys that men are surperior, and therefore own the lady they pick. Like the Bachelor show.
Not being worth-while is more of your own opinion, whilst being unworthy is an outsider's opinion. I'm aware there's more then one way to show someone what you think of them, but you didn't seem to acknowledge that at first. Betrayal is the most effective.
No, The media implys that we have to work hard to 'get a man'. Honestly, I'd be glad to turn into a sea anemone, one that simply duplicates itself to reproduce. I know that the flawless blonde has to be careful about what she eats (She also needs the right lighting and computer technicians to fix up the flaws, but you seem to have overlooked that) but it's the intent behind it. She's trying to look good to impress guys. What have celebrities intimidating dates got to do with the point? They are only intimidating because of their celebritiy status.
Listen, I DON'T think women should have to work to get men. I believe that the media is making this geneation's women unconsisiously think that they do.
Look, you've said that if it's disrespectful to themselves, then you think that they shouldn't do it. But you betray yourself. You said 'fighting' and 'competing', meaning, to my understanding, that they are giving away their dignity for a prize.
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Post by Calliston on Sept 21, 2003 4:00:30 GMT -5
No no no. I think I made myself misunderstood. My use of the words 'fighting' and 'competing' seem a bit too violent. Here's an example for you. Two friends like the same guy. Both are on the same 'level', we'll say. These two girls both 'go after' him to see who's the most suited for him.
And forgive that entire "You think I"m a bitch" thing. A tad unorthodox of me.
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Silva Sun
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Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a Baseball bat.
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Post by Silva Sun on Sept 21, 2003 6:34:58 GMT -5
Bah. It's still the same, just more covered up. Vultures fighting for a scrap of meat, or perhaps you'd prefer Lions mating with all the females and having one lead female. We're animals too, and some humans would do well to remember that. We may be more 'sophisticated' but that's only our perception. We still have those animal instincts: Men look nice and women give them what they want. Although, it's usually men fighting for females, giving us the impression of a prize instead of a person. Thanks, but I'll leave the rest of the fighting for a mate to you animals.
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azile
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Post by azile on Sept 21, 2003 9:26:13 GMT -5
and you girls are what...13, 14 years old? praise be for the feminist revolution otherwise we'd all be content to be uneducated women doing needlework and cooking and childbearing. today, we can study, have a mind of our own, get a decent job, have a career, be economically independent and lead life as we wish. but alas, the wonderful dream of the feminist forerunners was destroyed or at least severely derailed. callistron, had you read the intial posts, most girls were complaining about low self-esteem in the area of body image (my nose is too big, my hips too wide, i'm ugly), hence this thread's ostensible fixation with looks. and what are looks for? why do you want to look better than your friends when you go out to a nightclub or pub? attention! whose attention? men. of course, there are apparently a lot of other psychological reasons for competition, but i subscribe to the darwinian theory of evolution - that women inherently want to mate and want to mate with the best/strongest male whose children will subsequently have a higher rate of survival, thus ensuing the survival of the species. so why can't women fight over men? never said they couldn't; but it just makes us look like stupid hormone driven creatures with no sense of decency or self control. further, the act of competition is degrading in that in order to compete, a woman has to model herself to what a man considers to be attractive: the supermodels with the unhealthy bodies, scantily clad women in advertising - we feel that we're being forced to do something that has been dictated to us, robbing us of our individuality. sure, men are targetted, but not to the excessive extent as women. why else are numbers of anorexia and belimia much higher for girls than are for boys? this pushing of the male-conceived image of desirability is damaging not only our love that we should have for our appearance, but is making some of us do unhealthy things. they've been doing this to women for centuries: the painful corset for the hourglass figure in europe, the bound feet in china, the mutilation of genitalia in african countries: question - why should women have to put themselves through that kind of torture in order to be qualified to compete or have a chance? looking and feeling good for yourself is one thing, but to do it for another one according to their rules is degrading on many respects. wouldn't it be good if there was no such thing as 'sex appeal' and attraction was based on personality not appearance. alas, that is mere wishful thinking, but it doesn't mean we can't continue to dream of such a day. yikes...law students do have a propensity to rant don't they. oh gees, i better get back to studies. azzy
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azile
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Post by azile on Sept 21, 2003 9:38:00 GMT -5
Here's an example for you. Two friends like the same guy. Both are on the same 'level', we'll say. These two girls both 'go after' him to see who's the most suited for him. in order to answer this, you'll have to specify how those two friends propose to 'go after him'. in the context of this thread, this usually means to acquire or come close to the media image of the 'desired' woman because surely men are turned on by those types of women - we're all being constantly subject to and told that it's sexy to have stick like thighs, 22 inch waist and generous breasts. second, you realize that the boy isn't a wooden statute - he will have a mind of his own. that's where the image thing comes in again: if the boy likes girls with big breasts, does this mean that friend B, whose breasts are smaller than friend A, will have to undergo plastic surgery and get breast implants so that she can still compete with her friend for the boy? if the boy likes girls who have the kate moss waif figure, does that mean friend A, who is a bit more plump than friend B, will therefore have to endure extensive dieting and crazy gym sessions for two months straight? if you understand the problem that we see in the above, what we're therefore trying to get at is that women shouldn't have to go through this unnecessary self mutilation just to please men. anything we do should be to please ourselves - and the question ultimately is whether it is actually worth damaging our bodies for a man. being the individualists that our feminist forerunners hoped we'd be, we don't think that it is worth it. if the friends were to fight for the boy on personality grounds alone, we'd all be fine, but we all know that the world doesn't work that way. image in society today has been hyped up to become excessively important so if a man can't appreciate a girl for who she is and wishes that she could loose some weight, have skinnier thighs or bigger breasts, then tell him to shove it.
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Post by Calliston on Sept 21, 2003 11:25:55 GMT -5
Amen.
But I still say that society is NOT that messed up. Unless this women were insanely in love with him or had a real emphasis on being attractive and such, I honestly do not think that awomen would rush off to have her breasts slit open and have silicone cups inserted into them.
And a large amount women are not animals, and most men are not that shallow.
"If you look back in history It's a common double standard of society The guy gets all the glory the more he can score While the girl can do the same and yet you call her a whore."
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azile
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Post by azile on Sept 21, 2003 20:19:03 GMT -5
But I still say that society is NOT that messed up. that point is moot. Unless this women were insanely in love with him or had a real emphasis on being attractive and such, I honestly do not think that awomen would rush off to have her breasts slit open and have silicone cups inserted into them.No - the self esteem issues step in before this stage. first, why don't you consider that we actually have the concept of breast implants to begin with. breast implants aren't a health issue (unless a woman's had her breast chopped off after breast cancer...that's a different story) so why do we have this 'service' around? then you should consider that there are women who do go and have their breasts slit open to have silicone cups inserted into them and the real question you should be asking yourself is: why do these women feel the need to mutilate their bodies like this? at a plastic surgeons office, they have pictures of celebrities - be it facial features or chest (i want cameron diaz's nose and jlo's butt and so-and-so's lucious lips) so the connection has to be that we've been bombarded by unhealthy images of the male-perceived 'beauty' and thus there are women whose self esteem has been lowered to the extent that they feel a need to injure their bodies thus. what kind of society would pressure and hurt a woman so? is that messed up enough for you? the alarming rates of anorexia and belimia in girls/women should be indicative of the powerful influence of the media promotion of 'sex-appeal' --> and to sum up, who is the sex appeal for? why, the man of course. And a large amount women are not animals, and most men are not that shallow. as a woman, even i'd pause and let my eyes linger on another woman whose body and image is near the ones posted on billboards. lets be entirely honest with ourselves here, self esteem issues aside, but if friend A had supermodel looks whilst friend B is dumpy and ordinary, who do you think the boy will want to instinctively chat up to first ( his self esteem issues aside)? sure, he might be turned off by friend A's lack of personality but then and again, in this fast moving, fast changing world, just how many people will pause to give you a chance to show them how wonderful your inner being is? it's a materialistic world drunk on the glamour of image. that cycle is hard to break and the markets are loving it. still don't think the world is that messed up? azzy
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Silva Sun
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Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a Baseball bat.
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Post by Silva Sun on Sept 22, 2003 1:40:14 GMT -5
Wow. Having law students on this board was a gooooood idea.
The brainwashing of females into thinking they have to have the 'perfect shape' starts alarmingly young. Go and take a look at your barbie doll. Blue eyes, blonde hair, almost invisible waist, large endorsements. And they said Hitler was crazy...
(Love to stay and chat, but I've got piles of homework. Ta.)
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Post by Calliston on Oct 17, 2003 23:43:31 GMT -5
Ok, fine. So what you're saying is that we're all pressured into looking good at a very young age. I agree with that as much. And no, I still do not believe that the world is that messed up. I'm 15, I'm just getting started in high school, and no matter how green or naive I am, let me kick ass my own way. At the same time, I feel like you're talking from a text book.
But to those out there with low self-esteems, and beleive or are taught that you have to look pretty, I would have thought you all know better. I haven't run into anybody like that on this board, not ever. You're all smart and brilliant people, so start doing something about it, other than focusing on the fact that your nose is too damn big. Sure, it may be alot to rewrite, but what part of life isn't a challenge?
PS: If Barbie were to be turned into an actualy person, her ankles and neck wouldn't be able to support or body weight. She'd need some sort of full-body brace support. Not so stunning now, eh? Imagine fitting one of those under her princess bride outfit.
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azile
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Post by azile on Oct 18, 2003 5:13:15 GMT -5
Ok, fine. So what you're saying is that we're all pressured into looking good at a very young age. I agree with that as much.
i'm glad you do. now try to give that thought a bit more significance and weight and concern than you're giving it right now. and it's not just young age - it's across the spectrum. take botox injections - you're injecting a chemical to paralyze muscles so that your skin does not show that much wrinkling. now, what kind of health benefit does this REALLY give?
then and again, you'd probably just shrug this off and not accord it its actual weight and significance. the fact that things like botox and breast implants exist, surgery which serves no beneficial purpose, AND the fact that many people resort to it, really does not fit into the picture of a 'not so screwed up world'.
I'm 15, I'm just getting started in high school, and no matter how green or naive I am, let me kick ass my own way.
now spare a thought for the unfortunate ones who do not possess your strength and courage and confidence and self esteem. a lot of girls feel that they can't 'kick ass their own way'. they feel that they have to comply with the media representations and product advertisements.
At the same time, I feel like you're talking from a text book.
this comment is lacking in depth and substance. it'd make you look better if you could actually point to specific 'textbookish' points or point out the actual negatives of textbookism. as you have not, i can only interpret that as a lame attack against the myriad of things i've had to say that you couldn't come up with a reasonable counter to other than to dismiss it. i don't expect you to be able to come up with the counterargument because one couldn't possibly exist. as said above, the FACT that many women (feel free to scour the internet for statistics) resort to surgery which derives no health benefit, which is only geared towards the enhancement of image (for men), the fact that girls and some boys DIE from anoerxia because of their image obsession is evidence enough that the world is messed up. if you choose to turn a blind eye to these glaring facts, that's your ignorance and your inability to face the rot and corruption behind the glamour of an image-obsessed society. it's not a happy scene, so i understand why you'd choose not to accept it despite all that silva and i have had to say.
But to those out there with low self-esteems, and beleive or are taught that you have to look pretty, I would have thought you all know better.
that's harsh and cruel - you're saying to people with low self esteem that they're stupid and weak. well, excuse me whilst every advertisement, every teen magazine, 90% of women on tv feature the 'model' woman and oh, there is no such thing as peer pressure either. if you're trying to console people and inspire confidence, i assure you that you're going about it in the entirely wrong way. just because you're fit, fine and healthy with an exuberant amount of confidence gives you no right to scold others like that. say that to a woman about to step into a surgery to get breast implants - u realize it's not so terribly persuasive now.
the problem with image and girls has been rife for years - i'm already 4 years out of highschool and they started to coach us on image and self-esteem when we were 12. my friends have known girls who had passed away because they refuse to eat. go on the internet and find some damn stories about the lengths anorexic girls in hospital will do not to eat food yet look like they've gained weight. they have intensive counselling, that's just how bloody screwed up the world has driven them.
can your self-righteous attitude and step into the real world where real suffering of low self esteem takes months and years to heal with some anti-depressants prescribed along the way. i invite you to rethink the proposition "the world is screwed up" when you finally understand the root and cause of low self-esteem and accord it its fair weight and significance.
azzy
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Post by Baka Pixie ^-^ *Kumiko* on Oct 18, 2003 19:00:32 GMT -5
yeah. hate to sound liek a sob story *sniffles* but heres me: i was brought up backward. my parents didn't let me watch that much TV, i never saw any music video's and i was totally unaware of pop culture until i was 12. i didn't read fashion magazines and didn't have dolls. i played with the boys and got dirty. but there were other things in my life too. my parents expected ALOT of me.. it was easy to deliver as a child, but got harder as i got older. i was a child model for cloithing companies and a devoted dancer and gymnast. for various reasons tied more to do with the fact i liked the feeling and the fact my parents expected me to be perfect, i became anorexic at the age of 9. nine years old. dont tell me i was trying to attract the opposite sex. dont say i was overcome by images of beauty. i lived on a farm and helped deliver infant animals. i didn't care about my looks. but it was a part of me, so much so that i didn't even consider it abnormal. in fact, my skinny-ness depressed me. until i moved to england, and into london. at once i began being bullied for the way i looked, and instead of making me want to gian weight, i convinced myself losing weight was the only way to stop the taunting. i was bulimic at age 12. since then i have hopped from eating disorder to eating disorder, and it depresses the hell outta me, it's become the centre of my life, but it makes me happy. as a friend once told me "the world needs some sad people. some people are destined to be unhappy from the moment they're born. and they like it that way." and i do. dont tell me boys want skinny girls. dont tell me we destroy ourselves to prove darwin a genius. boys hate me, they wont touch me. trust me. at the age of 15, i had never had a boyfriend, and no boy has ever even been interested in me. I have someone right now, but we both have problems and our relationship destroys us both. we mutually use each other because thats all we know. but he wont touch me. he's my boyfriend only in name, and i know that as soon as he gets his Ex-girlfriend back, i'll be left behind.
grrr..... i promised myself i wouldn't rant..... *growls and yawns* oooh wee-eeell. no one pity me or anything. i despise pity.
anyway. yes. self esteem problems don't stem from being told outright "you're worth nothing" but the fact that my parents do it all the time doesn't help. and no one bullies me anymore.. i've found a group of friends that can act like a layer of protection. but it's not everything. in fact, it's not enough to keep me alive form day to day. so...
god this is a fucking depressing thread..
*sorry bout cussing*
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azile
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Post by azile on Oct 18, 2003 21:28:22 GMT -5
of course you know what you feel and think, but let me add something extra.
i was a child model for cloithing companies and a devoted dancer and gymnast. for various reasons tied more to do with the fact i liked the feeling and the fact my parents expected me to be perfect, i became anorexic at the age of 9. nine years old.
child modelling, dancing and gymnastics are all inextricably linked with weight and image. when i talked about anorexia i generalized to a certain extent in that it not only occurs to girls obsessed with image. ballet dancers and gymnasts in particular also suffer from weight disorders as their sports require it of them to be light and petite. in the case of ballet however, the stick figure with long arms and small torso is STILL considered the image of beauty and i wonder whether this has any application to gymnastics or not.
i convinced myself losing weight was the only way to stop the taunting. i was bulimic at age 12.
if it wouldn't hurt you too much to dwell on this point, but what was the reasoning behind your conviction to loose weight? you were bullied and taunted because of...? and so you thought the solution was to loose weight.
dont tell me boys want skinny girls. dont tell me we destroy ourselves to prove darwin a genius. boys hate me, they wont touch me. trust me. at the age of 15, i had never had a boyfriend, and no boy has ever even been interested in me.
and what would you do to get them interested in you? loose more weight? that was the entire crux of yomi's original comment. much of what we've said so far as been unfairly general and i recognize that there are cases like you but that doesn't mean that anything else we've said is untrue either.
I have someone right now, but we both have problems and our relationship destroys us both. we mutually use each other because thats all we know. but he wont touch me. he's my boyfriend only in name, and i know that as soon as he gets his Ex-girlfriend back, i'll be left behind.
hon, why do you feel that you need a boyfriend to validate your existence as a female? that guy sounds like a jerk and any relationship based on 'mutual usage' clearly doesn't look like it will get anywhere and you recognize this yourself.
you say that your problems have nothing to do with boys and society, yet your post has talked on bitterly about these two subjects. to take the path of rejecting males altogether is a bit extreme, i admit, but treat it as a mental exercise - what would you think your life'd be like if you didn't have to worry about being able to find a man interested in you? --> for a lot of us, it'd mean that we'd no longer have to worry about who our big nose is going to repulse or who's going to laugh at our huge thighs. what about you?
"you're worth nothing" but the fact that my parents do it all the time doesn't help.
i'm sorry, but as a parent, i'd never say that to my child. as a parent, love is supposed to be unconditional. i'm glad you've got a group of understanding friends.
"i thought you'd all know better than that" --> great lot of help and encouragement those words would be here calliston. thank you for your courage to share your problems with us - some of us here needed a wake up call.
azzy
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Post by Calliston on Oct 19, 2003 0:18:21 GMT -5
Well, I sure know that the past few posts were one. *sighs*
And I did not mean that the girls who didn't think they were pretty were stupid and weak at all. I just meant that if they wanted to change how they felt about themselves, they could find another way to do it other than turning on themselves.
I am honestly am sorry if it sounded like I was scolding. If that's what I did, then I'm ashamed.
And I am very aware that those things are done azile. It's kinda like smoking, isn't it? It's for the self-image and the surface. Every, fat-sucking second of it.
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