Yomi
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Post by Yomi on Sept 3, 2003 2:57:27 GMT -5
That's the first I've heard. You should read some texts from the late nineteenth century - especially the ones written by bishops and cardinals (or those guys up high in the church hierarchy) who wanted to flood China with missionaries so that they could convert the heretic and pagan masses and reap in more souls for the church. That sound like respect? Not likely - Christianity did not have such a wonderful reception in China when the west started to divide up the country into semi-colonies because of its aggressive push to convert. In this world Fibby, you'll realize most of the things we say are left silent, but the message is perfectly communicated. If you don't go to Sunday Church with them and take part in all their Church social events because you can't stand being preached at all the time about something you don't believe, which they think you'll gradually believe if they say it often enough, then you just naturally won't become friends. So the implied equation? - Go to Church --> Join in church activities --> friends.
- Don't go to church --> don't join in church activities --> no time together to socialize --> NOT friends.
So what say you to that? Did you just answer yourself Fibby? They went to evangelize (which means to convert), but lets conveniently bring along some very much needed gifts that these people are lacking. It's the government's fault - they should never have allowed those miserable depths of poverty to occur in the first place so that these evangelists have ammunition. If they did so out of the kindness of their hearts, I always ask - WHY - why bring the bible? Is receipt of the food and clothing conditional with sermons and preaching? Their kindness and love is clearly demonstrated in their gifts - the people won't doubt that. So, tell me, why the bible? Why is it part of the whole package? Freebies is one of the most simple and effective marketing strategies. And look! The target audience are desperate, starving people who really need food and clothing. --> this is where opinions diverge - the facts are there, make what you will of it. From these facts, I say they're bribing people to join because I profess to understand and be acquainted with the less wonderful side of humanity. You on the other hand, can remain optimistic about the facts and hope that there are no ulterior motives involved. If they forced people to believe in Christianity, I'll be one of the first to volunteer to join the army and wipe them out. You need to see the difference between outright force and a different sort of force which doesn't involve violence or physical force. You've obviously never seen that South Park episode where the above hypothetical DID occur. South Park speaks the blunt truth - the missionaries DON'T say you'll starve, but once they have enough of the community on their side, they'll ostracize those who don't believe. We've lost a lot of friends that way actually - they start to believe in Christ and the Church, and when you don't want to join in their faith, you drift apart and one day, you realize you're not even talking to each other anymore. Human politics is very easy to understand Fibby. Ostracizing parts of the community which don't believe in Christianity is evident in European history alone. It is not confined to Christianity either - all aggressive religions do it - e.g. the fundamentalist interpretation of Islam is to destroy anyone who is an unbeliever. I believe Christianity used to have a similar policy themselves with all the burning of heretics. Christianity's history has never been one of tolerance, and if you flip through any history book, it'll show you. I don't think so. I was approached on the street towards Christmas (?) last year by a missionary on the streets of Melbourne. He was a great guy and all - friendly, decent looking, a respectable type of man. But guess what - he was targetting Asians specifically, and he knew how to speak Chinese as well - so that he could spread his god's word in China. Nice guy, really, but the bloody gall of that man to reduce my belief into a subset of 'his' god just pissed me off. I already told him that I didn't believe in Christianity, and he after another 30 seconds of conversation (mainly from his side), he said: "So, what do you think god's plan for you is." For f*ck's sake, I just bloody told you I don't believe in your god and I believe in Buddha, whom you've dismissed as a mere mortal inferior to your god. I didn't punch you for that, and I was so ready to take him on in the streets before my friend saw my face and dragged me away. The guy was seriously really friendly and I'm sure he's a good man, but I think active conversion is just wrong. Stop pestering people about their beliefs, stop telling them that their beliefs are WRONG or NOT THE RIGHT ONE or that YOURS IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD - because ALL missionaries do that, and it's offensive. Full stop. NO! That's EXACTLY what I mean. It's NOT a universal morality. It's THEIR MORALITY. Take abortions and stem cell research (linked because it involves embryos) - they say it shouldn't be done because embryos have souls. That's not universal morality. That's Christian belief in souls in an embryo. The aethiest part of the community don't believe in souls, therefore think that embryos are nothing but a cluster of cells, therefore there is nothing wrong with doing testing on them or aborting them. The religious people then scream that the aethiest part of the population are bloody murderers for butchering unborn 'babies' when they just can't seem to see/accept that not all people subscribe to their belief! And no - I DON'T appreciate being baselessly called a bloody murderer because it's distasteful and offensive and because I certainly don't see myself as committing murder. I initially objected to the war (I assume we're talking about the latest Iraq one) for other reasons that do not involve god. The Church's line against the war was that "it is an un-christian thing to do". Well pardon me, I'm not Christian but I'm Buddhist and Buddha says that killing is just bad. If I were aethiest and supported the war, I certainly won't give a scrap for being labelled un-christian because I'm not one! And what about gay marriages? In the debate about whether the government should pass laws allowing gay marriages or not, the Church steps in once again and is against it because God says homosexuals are unnatural. Is that a universal morality? No - lets keep the lines very clear. That's YOUR morality, not mine: I see nothing wrong with same-sex couples. If your God deems it wrong, so be it, but how dare you impose it upon people who don't believe in your god? How dare you say that it's a 'universal morality'? By saying that your religion's beliefs embody 'universal morality' just shows that your religion doesn't respect other religions. You see what I'm getting at now Fibby? Yomi
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Yumiko
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Post by Yumiko on Sept 3, 2003 5:04:07 GMT -5
I am a Buddhist and damn proud of it but I'm not as loyal as before haha, I use to go to the Tzu Chi Temples with my mum in New Zealand but now in Australia there's not temples since I live in a small town. I also study Christian religion, since I'm forced to >< it's a course I have to have in school. And my teacher, I like her she's not those kind who says 'Ohh Christian is the best! God makes no mistakes' *roll eyes* she actually critisize Christian even though she's one herself. I got some theory to share with u guys.. Adman and Eve story: 1. If Adam and Eve were the only human to be created on earth...how the hell did their kids find wives? I mean if they married their sisters or brothers wouldn't they be in-breed?? and evereyone in this world woud be bros and sis and all deformed? 2. God said sin is bad...well when God said 'if you eat the fruit from the tree you will burn in hell and die' well when Eve ate the fruit...she didn't die! So God sinned! God sinned!!! ahem...sorry that had been in my head for quite a long time ^^;; 3. And God said if you eat the fruit from the tree you would know the difference between right and wrong... but Adam and Eve already KNEW the difference between right and wrong! Because after they ate the fruit and God came to find them, they hid! They knew they did the WRONG thing that's why they hid. (sorry if the ubove things were already mentioned by Yomi ^^; Man I hate it when people say "If you're not baptized, you'll go to hell" if that was true! I reckon nearly half of the people in the world would go to hell!!!! Last time I walked past a church and this girl came up to me. "Are you baptized?" "No" I replied "I'm a Buddhist" Then she gave me that disgusting look and told me I would burn in hell....WTF!!! And God sounds really up himself, he's always saying 'There is only ONE God' and he did shit-all to have the right to be powerful Buddha actually went through hell to become a Buddha! He didn't eat for ages and had to put up with lots of horrible stuff. Hmm... War, I HATE it because my country, Taiwan was ruined because of that! And the stupid Chinese are still trying to take over Taiwan! GO AWAY!!! THIS IS OUR COUNTRY! NOT YOURS!!! *cough* sorry had to scream for a bit ^^;; I'm not mentioning the Cantonese people but the Chinese they came into Taiwan 50yrs ago and just slaughtered everyone they even stopped us from speaking our language! My grandpa nearly got killed because he wanted to say his mother-tounge... opps off topics sorry ^^;; Here's a funny version of Buddha making humans XD I luv it when I was little hehe. Buddha made human out of mud, he first shape them into human shape and cook them. The white people were not cooked properly, the Asians were fine and the Black people were over cooked or dropped into the Ashes by accedient ^^;; I find it amusing and a tad bit of Racism in it haha but it's just funny, no hard feelings
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Post by Archangel_Dream on Sept 3, 2003 5:21:32 GMT -5
Yumiko-san, I think that telling God will send u to hell if you don't is last century! At least in our country...because we believe God is also the same in all forms of religion (only different in appearance whatsoever), and we say it doesn't matter what religion u are as long as everyone practices brotherhood among ALL...it's in our rules in Christianity (in our book), the Church recognizes ALL people, be it of different race or of the sort.
If other Christians can't accept that, then they don't really understand Jesus's plan now, do they? ^^
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Yomi
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Posts: 129
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Post by Yomi on Sept 3, 2003 5:38:29 GMT -5
Not this time - I'm not familiar with Genesis at all so I'm not qualified to speak on this point. The only time I went to a Catholic school was when I was in prep, gr 1 and gr 2 - they had these bible sessions, but I didn't even know what it was back then and I thought sitting inside a church listening to some old fart drone on about some uncomprehending things were a waste of time. You see, back in the dark ages, when people were illiterate and uneducated, you could fool the peasants with these lies. One of the biggest reasons for the decline in numbers in the Church these days is because people are smart enough to see through these thin threats. That's why I prefer Buddhism - it doesn't threaten you with hell and proclaims that anyone can become Buddha. I'm sure the Christian god won't ever be caught saying that everyone can become gods if they lead good lives. Why didn't you punch her in the face?!?! Religious vilification! Sue them and take them to court! Yeah - especially those evangelist radio channels - that's intolerance for other people's religions. Off Topic[/u] I'm actually pro-reunification. Like Hong Kong, I think the one country two systems approach does work. I see Taiwans as Chinese - they speak Taiwanese, which I just see as another dialect of Chinese as is Chiu Chow, Fujian, Cantonese, Beijing hua - how can profess to be speaking another language when we all use chinese characters? Surely you don't call them 'taiwanese characters' now do you? Politics separates us - but if that's the case, one country two systems. Quick History Lesson:[/u] The Nationalists who founded Taiwan have nothing to be proud of. I'm sure you're familiar with China's history in the 1930s leading onto the 40s. The Nationalists and Communists initially worked together to reunify China from the warlord state after the fall of the Qing dynasty. However, Kaishek got scared of the power and popularity of the communists with the people (the Nationalists were mainly landlord class - they never held the support of the peasants) and started to fight them (= civil war) INSTEAD of the Japanese who had, by the 1930s, taken over Manchuria and was steadily progressing south. Qiang Kaishek was more worried about getting rid of the communists than fighting a foreign invasion - and I'm sure you parents and grandparents know what the Japanese did to China. Disgusting, sickening things happened, because the Nationalists were too busy worrying about the Communists. Then when the allied forces began to fight back in the Pacific, Qiang Kaishek sat on his heels and let the foreign armies fight the Japanese for him - hence Australian generals don't have fond memories of that man because he never stood for his country when it mattered. He was too concerned about his precious position of power that his people suffered because he didn't want to loose troops to protect them (because he had to deal with the communists later). And after the war ended in Japan in 1945, the Nationalists, with the help of the allied forces (namely Americans) still couldn't defeat a bunch of peasants and had to flee to Taiwan crying that they were the legitimate government. By that time, they were corrupt and rotten to the core (it was inherent, due to their 'tutelage' system) - had no legitimate support mainland (otherwise they wouldn't be in Taiwan) and thus by all rights they are Chinese. Taiwan is just America's pawn to keep China divided and to have bases these so they can keep an eye on China because they're afraid of what will happen when China does catch up. It's going to be a strong contender, and god forbid that there be two superpowers in this world. Have your parents read my history summary could you please Yumiko? I wonder if I've got some details wrong, or I'm just extremely interested in another point of view on this matter. Yomi
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Yomi
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Post by Yomi on Sept 3, 2003 5:44:06 GMT -5
Hang on....I don't need YOUR Church to validate my god. That's just damn arrogance again - saying that it's YOUR god who's the same one in all religions. And that's intolerance and disrespect. Why? The Gods can't be all the same, because they all sure of different opinions and ideas: Buddhists are all vegetarians, Allah doesn't allow his people to eat certain types of meat whilst Christians can't have meat on Fridays (?) - so how come a god in a different guise has different ideas then?
Each religion's god is unique and different. Please don't try to debase any of them by saying they're all just the same because I find that offensive. You have your worship, I have my worship - doesn't that mean harmony? Why must you go around saying that my god is just your god in a different disguise?! That IS saying that there is only one true god, only you say it in a nicer way. Well, it doesn't neuter out the offensiveness behind the suggestion.
Yomi
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Post by Archangel_Dream on Sept 3, 2003 6:11:18 GMT -5
Ack! I didn't mean that, Yomi-san! I meant of Gods being the same in maintaining peace and brotherlyhood among people! Sorry if I offended you!
Well, that's what they stuffed into our heads....sorry again! Okay, I'll shut up *zips mouth* >.<
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Yomi
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Posts: 129
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Post by Yomi on Sept 3, 2003 6:20:40 GMT -5
Nah - it's ok. Religion is a touchy subject and I just like being touchy about it. Haven't I offended you by saying that my god is not your god in another disguise? Doesn't fundamentalist Islam want to start a jihad against nonbelievers? Lets get this straight - not all religions are peaceloving - especially fundamentalists who cannot tolerate any other religion. According to those fundamentalists (heck, ANY fundamentalist), God is about converting everyone and killing anyone who doesn't want to believe. That's not peace and harmony. Yomi
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Yumiko
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Post by Yumiko on Sept 3, 2003 6:23:47 GMT -5
Yomi that seriously offended me (I'm not angry at you though) I am NOT Chinese I am Taiwanese they are two completly DIFFERENT country years and years ago!!! We have our own language, Hokkien which is NOT a dialect... Oh god don't get my mum and dad to read it ^^;; their English is bad hehe But my dad told me this which I believed it is true because people have been on TV talking about it. When war started in China like 5000 years ago, and they were all speaking FuJien Hua it is the original language. The war made some people fled to Malaysia who became Malaysian and some fled to Taiwan who became Taiwanese and some fled to Japan who obviously became the Japanese. So Malaysia and Taiwan almost speak the same languages, so does the Japanese but even though they are very different but it still is similar like lots of words are the same. Its then when the Mongolians bought in the Mandarin Language into China and started the Beijing Hua and everything. So mainland China begin to speak Mandarin. Then in World War II Japanese took over Taiwan, that's why most old people in Taiwan can speak Japanese fluently. Taiwan was then under the education of Japanese we were just like Japanese, but they weren't horrible to us they didn't stop us from speaking our own language. But when the Japanese lost to the Americans in 1945, the Chinese came in on the 28th of Febuary 1946. The minute they came in they just shoot whoever they see, including school kids. Taiwan had no power over them, there were no Taiwanese government since the Japanese left not long ago. Since then Taiwan was under darkness, and the Martial Law came in. It means like, say for examle Crime A- you have to be in prison for 2 years but in Marital Law, you just get the Death Sentence and get shot on the spot. Taiwanese gave it another name 'White Terror' *translated in my own words* Witht he White Terror, thousands and thousands of innocents were killed. The Chinese polluted our country, killed lots of rare animals and took all the good stuff in Taiwan. They stopped letting us speak our language, whoever spoke it will either get tortured or killed. This ended in the 1980s and Taiwan got their own President now, but the Chinese are still trying to take over. *phew* that's about it I guess ^^;;
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Yomi
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Post by Yomi on Sept 3, 2003 6:58:28 GMT -5
Hokkien is not Fujian? Hmm...but you don't deny that you use Chinese characters right? I haven't studied Chinese linguistics, particularly dialect, but if you can speak Taiwanese just by altering the pronounciation of a few words....how does that make it a new language? It's like saying that the English that the people in London speak is a different language to the English that the Americans speak.
Granted - nationality is a construct of the nation-state, but nation-state is just a land defined by boundaries. Nationality is fluid - you change your passport and sign the right papers, you have a different nationality. Hence therefore you're still considered to be Chinese?
Damn...that is the most preposterous thing I've heard. Excuse me for making this judgement with no knowledge, but I'm going to check like right now. Mongols bought hanyu? ........
I see - we're talking about completely different people then. I thought you didn't want reunification with China because you thought that the Nationalists had legitimately set up another nation-state in 1946 when they fled to Taiwan. You're speaking on behalf of the third faction who doesn't ever get a say in this whole reunification business because lets face it - the han population has probably swamped the original natives on taiwan, just as Tibet is going to be swamped by the Han Chinese in the next few years (say goodbye to Tibetan culture folks!).
Which Chinese are you referring to now? The Chinese on Taiwan or the Communist Chinese in China? If the native taiwanese are in the minority and your political leaders do one day decide to reunify - tough luck - that's democracy for you. If your president is a han Chinese, then it's the vote of the majority, so tough luck again - unless you want a coup like George Speit in Fiji, but look at that guy now, he's in prison.
Yomi
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Silva Sun
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Post by Silva Sun on Sept 3, 2003 7:31:36 GMT -5
I noticed there was no reply to Yumi's theories about the creation story. I thought, what the hell, I can only make things worse. This was the passage:
1. If Adam and Eve were the only human to be created on earth...how the hell did their kids find wives? I mean if they married their sisters or brothers wouldn't they be in-breed?? and evereyone in this world woud be bros and sis and all deformed?
2. God said sin is bad...well when God said 'if you eat the fruit from the tree you will burn in hell and die' well when Eve ate the fruit...she didn't die! So God sinned! God sinned!!! ahem...sorry that had been in my head for quite a long time ^^;;
3. And God said if you eat the fruit from the tree you would know the difference between right and wrong... but Adam and Eve already KNEW the difference between right and wrong! Because after they ate the fruit and God came to find them, they hid! They knew they did the WRONG thing that's why they hid.
Umm... This is only my opinion in response.
1. Most people ARE deformed. Our entire SOCIETY is deformed. We're just used to it.
2. Everyone knows that the Catholic God is above such things as shame when his opinion and character change every two pages. He is GOD, therefore All-Powerful and will smite those who are unholy.
3. Um... They hid AFTER they ate the fruit, therefore, they knew right and wrong AFTER they ate it. I think it's hogwash, the creation story, symbolism aside, blah blah blah.
I'll leave to your rather interesting debate now, as I'm too cold to add an opinion of my own.
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Post by Archangel_Dream on Sept 3, 2003 8:43:35 GMT -5
Nah - it's ok. Religion is a touchy subject and I just like being touchy about it. Haven't I offended you by saying that my god is not your god in another disguise? Nah, I haven't in any way. ;D I see bad points in Christianity too, like Heaven and Hell (heck, if God wants to forgive and forget, what's with rotting those poor sinful souls in eternity??). Other religions are great coz you don't have to go to extremes to be holy and good--just do pure simple things ^^ So maybe it's better to just take the good points in each and "create" one for myself--kinda like society really. Ohh, I saw this quote in this book, and I felt like posting. I hope this isn't too off the topic ^^;: "The problem here is we don't believe we are much alike as we are. Whites and blacks, Catholics and Protestants, men and women. If we saw each other as more alike, we might be very eager to join in one big human family in this world. We all have the same beginning--birth--and we all have the same--death. So how different can we be?" I also remember someone asking why people are so intent on clinging onto their religion when most of them aren't even sure if what they believe is the truth, and many only believe it out of going with majority. "Hey, the truth right now is that we live alongside people, so why not just get along with them?" ^^ I'm not saying everyone thinks that way, but I saw ppl who think other religion are evil tools of the devil. Hope this can be heard to them. (Wowie....some religions are not upholding unity and all that good stuff!? O.o Oh well, better not judge them, I can't say I'm a peaceloving person worthy enough to judge ^^
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Yomi
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Posts: 129
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Post by Yomi on Sept 3, 2003 11:02:33 GMT -5
How dare that dude take the quote for his own? He lifted that from Buddha! Buddha said all life passed the stages of: Sheng, Lao, Bing, Si ==> translates as: Life, Old Age, Sickness, Death Didn't need Einstein here with whatever university degree to tell us that, because it was already said over 2000 years ago. Damn authors - wish they'd properly acknowledge who they're lifting from. Plagerism! Here is where I introduce you to people brainwashed by their religion and the complexities of human interaction - complex if you choose not to believe in the despicable pettiness humanity is capable of, simple if you can. "getting along" is almost saying "communism" because it assumes that there are no different power relations. But we all know that society is structured on one power relation over another - and thus this hierarchy struggle will ultimately spill over into the realm of religion - it seems like all aspects of life are fair game: you can make a competition out of anything. People see competition in the number of reviews at ff.net; people see competition in how much they make per annum; people see competition in whose got a greater following than the other. Human politics - you're born into it, and no, you don't have a say whether you want to participate or not. Yomi
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Yomi
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Posts: 129
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Post by Yomi on Sept 4, 2003 2:50:56 GMT -5
Well - America executed the first anti-abortion murderer today, and I'm glad they did it.
Why did Mr Hill kill the abortion-doctor? Because of his religious beliefs - he was a former Presbyterian minister who encouraged people to attack abortionists. Charming man isn't he, killing people because of his religious belief that unborn foetuses have souls therefore cannot/should not be aborted.
Are you just going to dismiss him as one psychopath or perverted the Christian faith? Then how come we don't see Jews or Hindus outside abortion clinics with placards, disturbing the patients and hurling verbal abuse?
The time of aggressive religion is over. The more people like Mr Hill push their beliefs onto the rest of the population, the more negative reaction he's going to receive.
I'm glad the state killed him.
Yomi
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Fibby
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Post by Fibby on Sept 4, 2003 2:53:29 GMT -5
woah. lots of stuff came up. um, i'm still at school so i'll just get back to this later --- when i get home. ^^; later! ;D
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Yumiko
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Post by Yumiko on Sept 4, 2003 3:53:27 GMT -5
How'd they kill him? Gun? or Put-down stuff??
Abortion...I don't really like it, it's sort of murdering but sometimes when Abortion isn't done it makes another person's life in guiltyness
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